Comments on: Help people ‘come out of the closet’ about their non-belief http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/ Blog Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:36:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Ken http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1048 Ken Mon, 14 Dec 2009 02:01:17 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1048 I grew up some time ago in NZ and was lucky not to have religion imposed from my family. However, I can remember being terrorised as a child (working as a paper boy) by an old women who told me I was a "sinner" and should repent. It was quite a frightening experience. A form of psychological child abuse. These days I come across some really thoughtless Christian behaviour when I have a Christian ceremony imposed on me at the most inappropriate times. For example, a meal at work, at a school reunion, etc. The more Christians who become aware that they are actually a minority in this society and shouldn't act as if everyone agreed with them, the better our society will be. And I think events like this campaign will help to bring home to at least some of these people that we actually skive in a pluralistic society. I grew up some time ago in NZ and was lucky not to have religion imposed from my family. However, I can remember being terrorised as a child (working as a paper boy) by an old women who told me I was a “sinner” and should repent. It was quite a frightening experience. A form of psychological child abuse.

These days I come across some really thoughtless Christian behaviour when I have a Christian ceremony imposed on me at the most inappropriate times. For example, a meal at work, at a school reunion, etc.

The more Christians who become aware that they are actually a minority in this society and shouldn’t act as if everyone agreed with them, the better our society will be.
And I think events like this campaign will help to bring home to at least some of these people that we actually skive in a pluralistic society.

]]> By: admin http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1039 admin Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:20:56 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1039 @Richard I grew up in middle of the North Island (Hamilton, Rotorua, Meremere, Huntly, Kaimais, New Plymouth). There was some 'burn in hell' types around there, and for examples of how some New Zealanders view non-belief just read the Stuff.co.nz comments for the typical misunderstandings about morals, ethics, and condemnations to hell, etc. http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/3149823/Theres-probably-no-God-coming-to-a-bus-near-you/ @Richard

I grew up in middle of the North Island (Hamilton, Rotorua, Meremere, Huntly, Kaimais, New Plymouth). There was some ‘burn in hell’ types around there, and for examples of how some New Zealanders view non-belief just read the Stuff.co.nz comments for the typical misunderstandings about morals, ethics, and condemnations to hell, etc.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/3149823/Theres-probably-no-God-coming-to-a-bus-near-you/

]]> By: Richard Wood http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1038 Richard Wood Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:23:24 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1038 I am sorry to hear about your friends growing up experiences and don't mean to belittle that. I can only say that I grew up in the South Island and would be hard pressed to recall any serious discussion at school or university about religion, let alone discrimination. I knew one person at high school who was public about his christianity. He got a hard time just like anyone who was a little different. My family background is Anglican and I went to state schools. Perhaps it is a very different experience for those with other churches in their background. In terms of burning in hell, I only ever heard that in american movies. If your 60% is a census figure I would suggest there are plenty of people who will mark down that they are Anglican or whatever but don't have strong beliefs about god, let alone discriminate against athiests. Perhaps what we're seeing here is how people's lives can vary markedly even in such a small country. Personally I've had more athiests pushing their beliefs at me than non-athiests so I'll struggle to give money that might encourage more of it, but I'll keep my mind open as the campaign develops. I am sorry to hear about your friends growing up experiences and don’t mean to belittle that. I can only say that I grew up in the South Island and would be hard pressed to recall any serious discussion at school or university about religion, let alone discrimination. I knew one person at high school who was public about his christianity. He got a hard time just like anyone who was a little different.
My family background is Anglican and I went to state schools. Perhaps it is a very different experience for those with other churches in their background. In terms of burning in hell, I only ever heard that in american movies.
If your 60% is a census figure I would suggest there are plenty of people who will mark down that they are Anglican or whatever but don’t have strong beliefs about god, let alone discriminate against athiests.
Perhaps what we’re seeing here is how people’s lives can vary markedly even in such a small country. Personally I’ve had more athiests pushing their beliefs at me than non-athiests so I’ll struggle to give money that might encourage more of it, but I’ll keep my mind open as the campaign develops.

]]> By: admin http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 admin Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:26:03 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1037 Wow, it's up to $3.5k worth of donations, it's on the front page of stuff.co.nz and it's the second most viewed article... http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/3149823/Theres-probably-no-God-coming-to-a-bus-near-you Wow, it’s up to $3.5k worth of donations, it’s on the front page of stuff.co.nz and it’s the second most viewed article…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/3149823/Theres-probably-no-God-coming-to-a-bus-near-you

]]> By: admin http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1035 admin Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:38:26 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1035 In lighter news... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7xZ-PJ9sTM In lighter news…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7xZ-PJ9sTM

]]> By: admin http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1034 admin Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:36:15 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1034 Heh, well the donations were at $666 a little while ago but I guess someone decided that number wasn't a good way to end the first day and it's a little higher now. @Richard, About 60% of NZ is religious and so I'm a little surprised that you think it's odd to run into many religious people, and also odd to me that you've never come across any discrimination. When I grew up there were some particularly strong minded Christians (teachers and students) that wouldn't mind telling children they were going to burn in hell, etc., which I found somewhat absurd (apparently their invisible friend was going to send them to an invisible lake of fire). Thankfully I didn't grow up in a religious household but I've had friends with horrible family problems because of supernatural beliefs. Now I donate to 'starving children' (via Heifer) and spend some spare time on what I consider to be charity (as well as the stuff you know about I've been working on and off on a teaching plan for prisoners). As far as I'm concerned it's up to all of us to help each other because help isn't coming from elsewhere. Of course most activities and charities generally speaking aren't to do with feeding children but they can still be worth it, and I care a lot about how children are threatened with hell, if they're told that ~4% of people (homosexuals) are evil, and how we view the basis for morals http://j.mp/51miwh and teachings like vicarious redemption http://j.mp/8K52oq The purpose of these advertisements is to help publicise a part of society that isn't normally visible, because without that effort people can think it's abnormal or immoral. I can only assume that you'll be asking a piddling 10k from the Catholic Church. Heh, well the donations were at $666 a little while ago but I guess someone decided that number wasn’t a good way to end the first day and it’s a little higher now.

@Richard,
About 60% of NZ is religious and so I’m a little surprised that you think it’s odd to run into many religious people, and also odd to me that you’ve never come across any discrimination. When I grew up there were some particularly strong minded Christians (teachers and students) that wouldn’t mind telling children they were going to burn in hell, etc., which I found somewhat absurd (apparently their invisible friend was going to send them to an invisible lake of fire). Thankfully I didn’t grow up in a religious household but I’ve had friends with horrible family problems because of supernatural beliefs.
Now I donate to ‘starving children’ (via Heifer) and spend some spare time on what I consider to be charity (as well as the stuff you know about I’ve been working on and off on a teaching plan for prisoners). As far as I’m concerned it’s up to all of us to help each other because help isn’t coming from elsewhere. Of course most activities and charities generally speaking aren’t to do with feeding children but they can still be worth it, and I care a lot about how children are threatened with hell, if they’re told that ~4% of people (homosexuals) are evil, and how we view the basis for morals http://j.mp/51miwh and teachings like vicarious redemption http://j.mp/8K52oq
The purpose of these advertisements is to help publicise a part of society that isn’t normally visible, because without that effort people can think it’s abnormal or immoral.
I can only assume that you’ll be asking a piddling 10k from the Catholic Church.

]]> By: Richard Wood http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1033 Richard Wood Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:38:46 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1033 Perhaps save the donations for starving children. I've never come across discrimination against atheists in my lifetime. I'm also surprised that you've run into so many religous people growing up. Where was that? Was it in nz? Perhaps save the donations for starving children. I’ve never come across discrimination against atheists in my lifetime. I’m also surprised that you’ve run into so many religous people growing up. Where was that? Was it in nz?

]]> By: Dave Lane http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1031 Dave Lane Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:24:00 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1031 By the way, I love that Dawkins quote (at least I heard it from him first) about "going one god further". For some reason, it reminds me of a great description I once saw of the defensive Japanese martial art, Aikido: "Aikido is the art of helping an aggressor overcome his or her aggression". Oh, and another great one, which I've used to great effect in response to house-calling evangelicals: "God made me an atheist. Who are we to question his plan?" Elegant on so many levels. By the way, I love that Dawkins quote (at least I heard it from him first) about “going one god further”. For some reason, it reminds me of a great description I once saw of the defensive Japanese martial art, Aikido: “Aikido is the art of helping an aggressor overcome his or her aggression”.

Oh, and another great one, which I’ve used to great effect in response to house-calling evangelicals: “God made me an atheist. Who are we to question his plan?” Elegant on so many levels.

]]> By: Dave Lane http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-of-the-closet-about-their-non-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-1030 Dave Lane Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:19:52 +0000 http://holloway.co.nz/blog/?p=582#comment-1030 Matthew, very well written. I was similarly a kind (and non-confrontational) "agnostic" - actually, I called myself a "confusist", content to be uncertain... (an old essay survives on my ideas: http://old.davelane.org/confusism_demystified.php) Then I read Dawkin's "God Delusion", and it felt like finding home at long last - reading an eloquent distillation of all the misgivings and distrust ("alien" thinking, to my mind) that I'd seen around me growing up in the USA. He convinced me to get off the fence. Since then, I've been open about my atheism, celebrating it, even, and engaging in discourse with believers. I've encouraged others to be open and honest, too. Sort of like Linux users - who are good at "passing" for something vaguely distasteful but more socially mainstream to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves - I think the god-fearing world has underestimated our numbers for eons, and we need to celebrate our well justified lack of certainty. Of course (a favourite argument of mine for Creationists and ID apologists), the systematic unjust marginalisation (to the point of stake burning, torture, etc.) of atheists over a couple millennia has caused humans to evolve (after a fashion) into Creationists. Ironic. Dave Matthew, very well written. I was similarly a kind (and non-confrontational) “agnostic” – actually, I called myself a “confusist”, content to be uncertain… (an old essay survives on my ideas: http://old.davelane.org/confusism_demystified.php)

Then I read Dawkin’s “God Delusion”, and it felt like finding home at long last – reading an eloquent distillation of all the misgivings and distrust (“alien” thinking, to my mind) that I’d seen around me growing up in the USA. He convinced me to get off the fence. Since then, I’ve been open about my atheism, celebrating it, even, and engaging in discourse with believers. I’ve encouraged others to be open and honest, too. Sort of like Linux users – who are good at “passing” for something vaguely distasteful but more socially mainstream to avoid drawing undue attention to themselves – I think the god-fearing world has underestimated our numbers for eons, and we need to celebrate our well justified lack of certainty.

Of course (a favourite argument of mine for Creationists and ID apologists), the systematic unjust marginalisation (to the point of stake burning, torture, etc.) of atheists over a couple millennia has caused humans to evolve (after a fashion) into Creationists. Ironic.

Dave

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